All
Included below are draft minutes from last weeks meeting.If you
have comments/corrections please let me know.
These minutes are also online in the document register as Austin/29.
regards
Andrew
___________________________________________________________
Draft Minutes of July 1999 Meeting (Austin/3)
1. Opening & Introductions
Welcome to the 3rd Joint PASC/TOG/WG15 Revision Group meeting. Andrew Josey
called the meeting to order at 9.08am Tuesday July 20, at the Best Western
Europa Hotel, Montreal, Quebec.
1.1 Introductions
1.1.1 Attendance list
Name Position Email
Andrew Josey Chair, TOG yyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Jim Zepeda HP, TOG yyyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxx
Frank Prindle DoD, TOG/PASC yyyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Lee Damico Sun, TOG yyyyyyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cathy Hughes Editor, TOG yyyyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Don Cragun Sun, TOG/PASC yyy@xxxxxxxxxxx
Nick StoughtonSecretary, yyyy@xxxxxxxxxx
PASC/WG15/TOG
Andrew Gollan Sun, TOG (XNET) yyyy@xxxxxxxxxxx
Ulrich DrepperCygnus, Linux yyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxx
Community
Peter Anvin Transmeta, Linux yyy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Community
Michael Universidad De yyy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Gonzalez Cantabria,PASC
Harbour
Ted Baker Florida State yyyyy@xxxxxxxxxx
University, PASC
Mark Brown IBM, TOG yyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Curtis RoysterDoD/DISA, PASC/TOG yyyyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxxx
Yasushi Mitsubishi/WG15 yyyyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Takahata
Keld Simonsen DKUUG, WG15 yyyy@xxxxxxxx
Lowell JohnsonIEEE, PASC yyyyyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Finnbarr Compaq, TOG yyy@xxxxxxxxxxx
Murphy
1.2 Approve Agenda
Andrew outlined the overall purpose of the meeting, giving some of the
choices that we need to address.
The agenda (AUSTIN/27) was approved without addition.
1.3 Approval of Minutes
The minutes of the previous meeting (AUSTIN/21) were approved without
modification.
1.4 Minutes of Previous meeting (AUSTIN/7)
The previous minutes were approved as distributed.
1.4.1 Matters Arising - Action Item Review
A9809-09 MB to add columns to AUSTIN/6 for what .13, FIPS, & SUS require to
be able to control.
OPEN
A9809-09 MB to add columns to AUSTIN/6 for what .13, FIPS, & SUS require to
be able to control.
CLOSED (OBE)
A9903-01 AJ to obtain a copy of .1n (corrigenda) for reference CD.
CLOSED
A9903-02 NS and AJ to prepare the other three PARs for the PASC-PMC in case
they are required.
CLOSED
A9903-03 AJ to ensure that all networking bodies (e.g. XoTGNET and
PASC-Distributed Systems) realize that they are explicitly invited to Austin
Group meetings.
CLOSED
A9903-04 AJ to provide KS with some examples of how a function (e.g. fseek)
might look in time for the next WG14 meeting in London, WB 21 June.
LEAVE OPEN - change to October 1999 meeting
A9903-05 Keld Simonsen to supply a list of overlapping functions between XSH
and ISO-C that may have problems if specified in the new Standard.
Reassigned to Ulrich Drepper
A9903-06 AJ (as PASC study group chair) to ensure that all projects that are
within the scope (or possible scope; e.g. projects that may fail to reach
the deadline) realize that they should be involved in the Austin Group work,
and are appropriately invited to attend.
CLOSED
A9903-07 AJ to check SUD to see if there are good examples that could be
pulled in to the "Examples" sections.
CLOSED - there are examples that should be included in a later draft (or
possibly in XRAT)
A9903-08 AJ to add Peter Anvin to the Austin group reflector
CLOSED
A9903-09 FP to obtain a draft of 1003.1n for editorial information (not
draft 1 inclusion) ASAP
CLOSED
A9903-10 AJ to update Lowell on current negotiations with IEEE
CLOSED
A9903-11 AJ to request a special plenary of SSWG on Wednesday evening at
Charlotte
CLOSED
A9903-12 AJ to alter scope to correct UN, PI, OF, OP marked sections of XCU,
and OH sections of XSH.
CLOSED
A9903-13 AJ to circulate documents from this meeting ASAP
CLOSED
A9903-14 AJ to provide DWC with updated PAR (PARs) in time for the PMC
meeting.
CLOSED
A9903-15 AJ to discuss with Lowell meeting fees for the Montreal meeting
CLOSED
2. Procedures Update
Andrew Josey gave a brief overview of the JPC procedures (JDOCS). These have
not yet been finalized, but are expected to be soon. He also gave an
overview of the committee draft development procedures (AUSTIN/26). We need
to improve our use of Aardvark in order to ensure that opinions and comments
are not lost; the austin-review mail list is not intended as a general
discussion list, although it has been used as such.
3. Identification of ORs and Chair Election
PASC - Don Cragun.
WG15 - Nick Stoughton.
TOG - Jim Zepeda.
4. Status Reports
4.1 Austin Group Status
Andrew Josey gave a brief overview (AUSTIN/28) of the mission and purpose of
the Austin Group as an introduction for the new members. Currently 126
participants (up by 50 since the previous meeting), from a wide mix of
interest groups.
Draft 1 published June 1 1999.
Joint Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) signed between IEEE and TOG to cover
copyright.
A substantial amount of time has been devoted so far to this standard, and
it might be interesting to keep a tally of this for later publication.
ACTION Chair to set up a time-counter on the web site.
The MoU defines the base documents, the bylaws and procedures governing the
production of the new standard. There will be joint ownership of the
resulting work to be shared between the IEEE and The Open Group. Publication
and Distribution rights are described, but there was no agreement on free
web access to the resulting documents. This is still open for further
discussion. Andrew Gollan asked if there were plans to push this issue
forward. Andrew Josey stated that this would be progressed. Keld asked about
ISO's involvement. Lowell stated that this should be done in the same way
that other POSIX standards are handled; once completed ISO will get the
documents for free to sell in their own way.
Before publication, electronic access to the documents is permitted, but
this will be removed at publication.
4.2 PASC/POSIX Status
Revision PAR approved at June Standards Board. This will be called P1003.1
from the IEEE point of view. IEEE Std 1003.2 will be withdrawn upon approval
of this standard. Where a working group has liaison by common membership (as
is the case here), the liaison members must be suitably accredited.
ACTION ORs to provide letters authorizing them as representatives of their
organization.
We need to merge/include a number of in-flight amendments.
.1a: Nick Stoughton: about to go for final recirculation; needs work on
namespace reservation. Should finish very soon. Needs FPDAM ballot in ISO.
.1d: Frank Prindle: currently in recirculation. Mainly editorial changes.
Expects to go to standards board for final approval soon. It has not had
FPDAM ballot in ISO yet.
.1g: Lowell: nothing has changed. Craig Meyer, the ballot coordinator, does
not have the funding to complete this until next year. This draft has been
languishing for several years. It may well be killed soon if no progress can
be made.
.1h: Helmut Roth: SRASS hope to get a draft to the IEEE this week for
initial ballot. This document is behind schedule, and is extremely unlikely
to make the deadline. ISSUE what to do with this project.
.1j: Frank Prindle: similar to .1d, but one more recirculation needed.
Concerns over scope limitations that will probably upset some of the ballot
group. Close to the wire, but still expected to be included.
.1m: Helmut Roth: Checkpoint - restart. First ballot got 60% approval. Two
more recirculations needed, and FPDAM. Unlikely to make it.
.1q: Frank Prindle: Trace: this in first recirculation, and is at 64%
approval. Several small changes underway, new objections are expected.
Unlikely to make it.
.2b: Don Cragun/Nick Stoughton: in first ballot. One or two more recircs
likely. In danger. FPDAM started.
4.3 IEEE/TOG Status
See MoU details above.
4.4 C9x Status
The FDIS vote has not yet happened, but the draft has been delivered to JTC1
for this to start. The FDIS vote is 2 months, yes/no with no comments. It is
likely that this will pass.
4.5 Networking Status
Andrew Gollan (Vice Chair of XNET) reported on current status. There is an
open technical mailing list (yyyy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ) for anyone to join. Drafts
are online. Austin Group participants are actively encouraged to
participate. XNS (Unix Networking Services) includes sockets and XTI, and is
in ballot (closes July 30) with issue resolution soon after. TOG Company
Review expected in September. Final meeting in October. Publication after
November meeting of Architecture Board. Ready for inclusion in Austin
documents this year. XTI will be optional, and maybe deprecated or obsolete.
Basic IPv6 interface added. No specification of either Unix domain or raw
sockets. Advanced IPv6 interfaces will not be included (not finished at
IETF). The getattrinfo() interface from .1g had IPR issues, which have now
been resolved, and this interface will be included.
The Austin Common Standard will supercede XNS when it is finally published.
Therefore, XNS will probably never be formally printed. It will be available
on the web. Should the XNS document be closed off as described, or held
open? Some discussion. ISSUE should XNS should be completed and closed off
by the end of this year, or remain uncompleted?
There should not be a product standard based on XNS 5v2. This group does not
have the power to decide this issue, and while there is a single strong
objector (who does have a mechanism for raising his concerns in TOG) this
should not go on the issues list, and is not felt generally to be a problem
we need to be concerned with.
Should XTI be marked optional or obsolete? If it is marked as obsolete, it
will probably not be included in the Austin standard. There is consensus in
XNET to mark it as optional. There is not consensus yet that this should be
marked legacy or obsolete. In order to exclude it automatically from XSH6 it
should be marked as one of these. Probably legacy.
There is much good verbiage in 1003.1g, whether it completes or not. Having
two competing standards (XNS and 1003.1g) is not good. 1003.1g covers raw
sockets and Unix domain sockets. What should we do to the scope to include
these? ACTION Andrew Gollan/XNET to make a proposal on how to include
relevant pieces of P1003.1g in our scope; this proposal should be submitted
after the October 1999 XNET meeting.
XNS makes reference to various RFCs. How should we make normative references
to such standards? ISSUE how to make normative references to non-ISO
standards.
4.6 JPC Status
Roger Martin reported that there would be an electronic discussion and
ballot on the JDOCS procedures in the next 4 - 5 weeks.
5. Old Business
None.
6. New Business
Aardvark discussions are captured in the aardvark itself, and not further
minuted. Only issues and actions arising from these discussions are noted
below.
6.1 XBD Aardvark
138 comments/objections.
OPEN - ERN 3, 6
ISSUE: come up with consistent names for the documents to use throughout,
and a name for the set.
ACTION: H P Anvin to prepare aardvark providing mapping between names used
in the text and the names used in ISO 10646 (see ERN 26).
OPEN ERN 32
ACTION: J Zepeda address ERN 38. Done - accept as marked, change to "Memory
associated with a process than can contain dynamically allocated data".
ISSUE - Home directory - need to be very careful about the use of this term.
Check all uses of "Home Directory" to ensure that it is used in the context
of this definition (changed to use the "user database"), and not used where
$HOME should be used instead. ERN 58
No consensus on ERN 59.
ACTION: Frank Prindle to check on use of "System Scheduling Priority" in XCU
to see if the term can be replaced with "Nice Value". (ERN 81)
ACTION: Mark Brown to contact Gary Miller for rationale on positive
characters (ERN 93/94) and propose aardvark changes to include rationale for
this decision.
ACTION Mark Brown to contact Gary Miller regarding ERN 112 to propose
appropriate course of action.
ACTION Nick Stoughton to clarify position on Canadian Std Z234.4.1-1990 (is
it proposed, adopted, revised?)
ACTION Mark Brown to contact Gary Miller regarding ERN 120 to propose
appropriate course of action. Ulrich Drepper to be included in this
discussion.
ACTION Peter Anvin to check proposed action for ERN 130
ISSUE index - what to do with cross volume references, if a common index to
all volumes is required. Also address all issues in ERN 136.
6.2 XCU Aardvark
376 aardvark enhancement requests submitted.
ISSUE: what version of C is this standard to be based on. If it is c99,
should c89 utility refer to the c99 compiler, or will there be a new
utility?
ISSUE: ERN 157 If c89 is kept, but we align with c99 XBS5 is not an
appropriate identifier, since it refers to a different version. (see also
getconf)
ACTION: TOG OR to investigate the problems with c9x and XSI conformance.
ACTION: Peter Anvin to rewrite the calendar section to handle the
Julian/Gregorian switchover problem.
ISSUE ERN 195 cannot be resolved until c9x issues are closed. Since c9x
strftime and POSIX locale definition of %c and %p differ, we cannot simply
refer to strftime at this point.
ACTION Andrew Josey to file an interpretation request against dd (in
POSIX.2) regarding swan inconsistency (ERN199)
ACTION: WG15 OR to request information on alternative dd command syntax (see
ERN 295)
ACTION: All: review all ex and vi aardvarks after .2b merge.
ACTION: Donn Terry to investigate historic practice regarding ERN 285 and
check that his proposed action is reasonable. Similarly for 286, proposing a
suitable action.
ACTION: Nick Stoughton to ask Eric Allman for advice on ERN 288
ISSUE Need to check all uses of "nice value" and "system scheduling
priority" in XCU, XSH, and XBD (see action arising from XBD above).
ACTION Andrew Josey to check on ERN 335 resolution.
6.3 XSH Aardvark
448 aardvark enhancement requests submitted.
ISSUE - as above for version of C to be used. If c99, then how to get new
functions, how to change footprint of existing functions etc.
ACTION Keld Simonsen to conduct informal discussion with WG14 and ISO
central secretariat regarding using c99 material in a guide and copyright
issues in including c99 functions in this standard.
ISSUE need to look at all informative text to find normative requirements,
and to move them appropriately.
ISSUE need to get a better conformance statement for entire document set
ACTION: TOG Base WG to address ERN40
ACTION Frank Prindle to assist the editors with shading in Realtime section.
ACTION Donn Terry to propose alternative wording for ERN 49
ACTION Donn Terry to file an interpretation request for ERN 51
ISSUE what to do about 1003.1n? Should it be balloted, or should it die and
the PAR for this project be modified to include that work?
ACTION TOG Base WG to consider bsd_signal and decide if this should become
legacy.
ACTION Peter Anvin to write definition for ISVTXT on directories for XBD
(and possible changes for chmod in XCU)
ACTION Frank Prindle to check all EIO errors as defined in ERN 82
ACTION TOG Base WG to consider appropriate action for ERN 90
ACTION TOG Base WG to consider appropriate action for ERN 92
ACTION TOG Base WG to consider appropriate action for ERN 94
ACTION Frank Prindle to check shading on errno for ERN 102
ACTION Peter Anvin to direct a proposal for #! To OGTGBASE for their
consideration
ACTION TOG Base WG to consider appropriate action for ERN 111
ACTION Ulrich Drepper to provide example of getsubopt for ERN 157
ACTION TOG Base WG to consider appropriate action for ERN 168 and 169
ACTION TOG Base WG to consider appropriate action for ERN 190 and 191
ACTION TOG Base WG to consider appropriate action for ERN 219 and 225
ACTION TOG Base WG to consider appropriate action for ERN 220
ACTION Donn Terry to submit an interpretation request against POSIX.1
regarding ERN 249
ACTION TOG Base WG to consider appropriate action for ERN 259 and 260
6.4 Style Issues
Tuesday: attempted conf call but with no speakerphone. Donn Terry present.
This was abandoned as unworkable after a few minutes.
Nick Stoughton went and bought a speakerphone - thanks to Usenix for this!
Wednesday: Donn Terry joined by conference call (after 31 minutes waiting
for him).
1. Use 'shall' not 'will' or present tense. Original POSIX editors found
that 'shall' was very imposing, and tried to make the documents more human
readable. However, there was substantial pushback from IEEE and ISO. AGREED
Use of the imperative should be restored and included in the new text. Go
through POSIX.1 and POSIX.2 to find all uses of "shall" (and will), [plus
maybe "should", "can", "must", "may", "might" etc] and restore this usage in
normative context. Use the same style in XSI and MAN shaded sections.
2. Character quoting: macro-ize all uses of C char constants (single quote
CW), C strings, (double quoted CW), shell operators (bold CW, no quotes)
etc. ACTION - Nick Stoughton to send Cathy Hughes the relevant part of the
POSIX macros and PSSG text
3. Volume naming; ACTION Yvette Ho Sang: Check if we can define abbreviation
"XBD" to "The XBD part of 9945-1" etc, and then use this abbreviation
everywhere a cross volume reference is required.
4. "Man Page" Style: ACTION Yvette Ho Sang to check on the heading/clause
numbering requirements both at IEEE and ISO (we want no numbering, and
certainly forced page-breaks).
6.5 Global Issues
Mostly covered in style above.
7. Consent List
The following items were agreed upon during this meeting and added to the
Consent list (SD/2)
7 AGREED Use of the imperative should be restored and included in the new
text. Go through POSIX.1 and POSIX.2 to find all uses of "shall" (and will),
[plus maybe "should", "can", "must", "may", "might" etc] and restore this
usage in normative context. Use the same style in XSI and MAN shaded
sections. (Note that this is for normative text only).
8. Issues List
ISSUE: come up with consistent names for the documents to use throughout,
and a name for the set.
ISSUE index - what to do with cross volume references, if a common index to
all volumes is required. (see also XBD D1 ERN 136).
ISSUE: what version of C is this standard to be based on. If it is c99,
should XCU c89 utility refer to the c99 compiler, or will there be a new
utility? If c99, then how to get new XSH functions included, how to change
footprint of existing functions etc.
ISSUE: (see XCU D1 ERN 157) If c89 is kept, but we align with c99 XBS5 is
not an appropriate identifier, since it refers to a different version. (see
also getconf)
ISSUE (see XCU D1 ERN 195) cannot be resolved until c9x issues are closed.
Since c9x strftime and POSIX locale definition of %c and %p differ, we
cannot simply refer to strftime at this point.
ISSUE need to get a better conformance statement for entire document set
ISSUE what to do about 1003.1n? Should it be balloted, or should it die and
the PAR for this project be modified to include that work?
9. Closing
9.1 Review of Action Items
9907-01. Mark Brown to add columns to AUSTIN/6 for what .13, FIPS, & SUS
require to be able to control.
OPEN
9907-02. Andrew Josey to provide Keld Simonsen with some examples of how a
function (e.g. fseek) might look in time for the next WG14 meeting in
London, WB 21 June.
LEAVE OPEN - change to October 1999 meeting
9907-03. Keld Simonsen to supply a list of overlapping functions between XSH
and ISO-C that may have problems if specified in the new Standard.
Reassigned to Ulrich Drepper
9907-01. Nick Stoughton to send Cathy Hughes the relevant part of the POSIX
macros and PSSG text
9907-02. Yvette Ho Sang: Check if we can define abbreviation "XBD" to "The
XBD part of 9945-1" etc, and then use this abbreviation everywhere a cross
volume reference is required.
9907-03. Yvette Ho Sang to check on the heading/clause numbering
requirements both at IEEE and ISO
9.1.1 Actions Arising from XBD Aardvark
9907-04. H P Anvin to prepare aardvark providing mapping between names used
in the text and the names used in ISO 10646 (see ERN 26).
9907-05. J Zepeda address ERN 38. CLOSED - accept as marked, change to
"Memory associated with a process than can contain dynamically allocated
data".
9907-06. Frank Prindle to check on use of "System Scheduling Priority" in
all volumes to see if the term can be replaced with "Nice Value". (ERN 81)
9907-07. Mark Brown to contact Gary Miller for rationale on positive
characters (ERN 93/94) and propose aardvark changes to include rationale for
this decision.
9907-08. Mark Brown to contact Gary Miller regarding ERN 112 to propose
appropriate course of action.
9907-09. WG15 Nick Stoughton to clarify position on Canadian Std
Z234.4.1-1990 (is it proposed, adopted, revised?)
9907-010. Mark Brown to contact Gary Miller regarding ERN 120 to propose
appropriate course of action. Ulrich Drepper to be included in this
discussion.
9907-011. Peter Anvin to check proposed action for ERN 130
9.2 Actions Arising from XCU Aardvark
9907-012. TOG OR to investigate the problems with c9x and XSI conformance.
9907-013. Peter Anvin to rewrite the calendar section to handle the
Julian/Gregorian switchover problem.
9907-014. Andrew Josey to file an interpretation request against dd (in
POSIX.2) regarding swab inconsistency (ERN199)
9907-015. WG15 OR to request information on alternative dd command syntax
(see ERN 295)
9907-016. Donn Terry to investigate historic practice regarding ERN 285 and
check that his proposed action is reasonable. Similarly for ERN 286,
proposing a suitable action.
9907-017. Nick Stoughton to ask Eric Allman for advice on ERN 288
9907-018. Andrew Josey to check on ERN 335 resolution.
9.3 Actions Arising from XSH Aardvark
9907-019. Keld Simonsen to conduct informal discussion with WG14 and ISO
central secretariat regarding using c99 material in a guide and copyright
issues in including c99 functions in this standard.
9907-020. TOG OR to pass to TOG Base WG to address ERNs 40, 49, 51, 82, 90,
92, 94, 111, 168, 169, 190, 191, 219, 225, 220, 259, 260
9907-021. Frank Prindle to assist the editors with shading in Realtime
section.
9907-022. Donn Terry to propose alternative wording for ERN 49
9907-023. Donn Terry to file an interpretation request for ERN 51
9907-024. TOG OR to pass to TOG Base WG to consider bsd_signal and decide if
this should become legacy.
9907-025. Peter Anvin to write definition for ISVTXT on directories for XBD
(and possible changes for chmod in XCU)
9907-026. Frank Prindle to check all EIO errors as defined in ERN 82
9907-027. Frank Prindle to check shading on errno for ERN 102
9907-028. Peter Anvin to direct a proposal for #! To OGTGBASE for their
consideration
9907-029. Ulrich Drepper to provide example of getsubopt for ERN 157. CLOSED
9907-030. Donn Terry to submit an interpretation request against POSIX.1
regarding ERN 249
9.4 Document Register
Note that Austin/SD1 (Issues list) and Austin/SD2 (Consent list) will be
updated based on these minutes.
AUSTIN/28Andrew Status Presentation
Josey
AUSTIN/29Nick Minutes of the July 1999
Stoughton Meeting
9.5 Next Meeting(s) / Future plans
The remaining aardvarks will be checked for clarity and precision, and if
they are good enough we will vote on them electronically.
A sanity check draft (2) will be made available as soon as the aardvark
analysis has completed and the required edits made. This is expected by the
end of September/beginning of October.
Draft 3 will include XNS 5 release 2, 1003.1a, and 1003.2b, plus those
amendments ready for editors to include by 12/1/99. Draft 3 should be
available by 2/29/00. There will be an 8 week review period for the draft 3
review.
New timeline:
October 1999 Draft 2 available (no formal review period)
Feb 29 2000 Draft 3 available
Mar 1 2000 - April 30 (8 weeks) Draft 3 review
May 15-21 review meeting
The next meeting of the Austin Group is likely to be a planning meeting in
late December 1999 or early January 2000 to decide contents for draft 3 and
discuss any issues such as c9x.
Next review meeting in May 2000 in Cupertino or Copenhagen. (Date/place to
be announced).
-----
Andrew Josey The Open Group
Austin Group Chair Apex Plaza,Forbury Road,
Email: yyyyyyy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Reading,Berks.RG1 1AX,England
Tel: +44 118 9508311 ext 2250 Fax: +44 118 9500110
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